How Iceland's women drive gender equality: Learn the secrets of the Sprakkar (EN)

Eliza Reid: Sprakkar, as you said, it is a very

Eliza Reid: old Icelandic word.

Eliza Reid: It means "extraordinary woman".

Eliza Reid: Even though it has fallen out of

Eliza Reid: usage, wasn't that common.

Eliza Reid: The fact that the language has a

Eliza Reid: word that defines exclusively

Eliza Reid: women in an exclusively positive

Eliza Reid: way is something I think we

Eliza Reid: can adopt in many different

Eliza Reid: languages.

Eliza Reid: Amongst people who identify as

Eliza Reid: women, we all have a sprakki

Eliza Reid: within us in some way

Eliza Reid: where we can let our talents

Eliza Reid: and light shine.

Kristina Appel: Welcome to the HerCareer podcast.

Kristina Appel: Are you interested in current issues

Kristina Appel: in business, science, politics

Kristina Appel: and society, specifically

Kristina Appel: from a female perspective?

Kristina Appel: Or would you like personal insights

Kristina Appel: into the day-to-day work of people

Kristina Appel: and companies that are facing up to

Kristina Appel: social and economic changes?

Kristina Appel: Well, you've come to the right

Kristina Appel: place.

Kristina Appel: What does Iceland have that Germany

Kristina Appel: doesn't?

Kristina Appel: Well, in terms of gender equality,

Kristina Appel: Iceland is currently the world's top

Kristina Appel: ranking country.

Kristina Appel: In comparison, Germany ranks

Kristina Appel: at 9.

Kristina Appel: That's not too shabby in terms of

Kristina Appel: the global state of women's

Kristina Appel: equality, but it's also not

Kristina Appel: great for one of the richest

Kristina Appel: countries in the world.

Kristina Appel: So again, what is Iceland doing

Kristina Appel: right?

Kristina Appel: And could Germany and other

Kristina Appel: countries use it as a blueprint for

Kristina Appel: their own growth?

Kristina Appel: In this episode, I'm welcoming Eliza

Kristina Appel: Reid. She's a bestselling author,

Kristina Appel: co-founder of the Iceland Writers'

Kristina Appel: Retreat, and former First

Kristina Appel: Lady of Iceland.

Kristina Appel: Eliza's perspective is rather

Kristina Appel: unique.

Kristina Appel: She's Canadian, but she's been

Kristina Appel: representing Iceland and its women

Kristina Appel: on an international stage.

Kristina Appel: In her first book, "Secrets of the

Kristina Appel: Sprakkar.

Kristina Appel: Iceland's extraordinary women and

Kristina Appel: how they are changing the world",

Kristina Appel: Eliza is exploring Iceland's women

Kristina Appel: and their traditions.

Kristina Appel: So let's have a conversation with

Kristina Appel: her and find out what she's

Kristina Appel: learned.

Kristina Appel: Welcome, Eliza.

Kristina Appel: Thanks for joining us today.

Eliza Reid: Thank you very much for inviting me.

Kristina Appel: You've been for quite a while the

Kristina Appel: First Lady of Iceland.

Kristina Appel: You haven't been the First lady

Kristina Appel: since I think January this year.

Eliza Reid: About a year ago, august.

Kristina Appel: How's

Kristina Appel: that been?

Kristina Appel: How's that year been?

Kristina Appel: How has working life changed for

Kristina Appel: you?

Eliza Reid: Well, I like to joke that I don't

Eliza Reid: have to wear makeup as much.

Eliza Reid: So that's something that I like.

Eliza Reid: I mean, some things have changed and

Eliza Reid: some things haven't.

Eliza Reid: Our weekends are much freer than

Eliza Reid: they used to be.

Eliza Reid: We always had some kind of event on

Eliza Reid: the weekends, different things.

Eliza Reid: But I feel like, otherwise, my day

Eliza Reid: to day life is just as busy.

Eliza Reid: And I like that. I like being busy

Eliza Reid: very much. So it's good to have my

Eliza Reid: own projects and also to have sort

Eliza Reid: of control a little bit more or over

Eliza Reid: which projects I'm taking

Eliza Reid: on.

Kristina Appel: And is, I don't really like the

Kristina Appel: phrase, but is female empowerment

Kristina Appel: still one of your priorities?

Eliza Reid: Definitely, I think it always will

Eliza Reid: be until we get to more equality

Eliza Reid: and I don't think that's going to

Eliza Reid: happen, you know...

Kristina Appel: Too soon?

Eliza Reid: ... as much as I want to. Yeah, I just

Eliza Reid: I think I discovered, my husband

Eliza Reid: became president rather

Eliza Reid: unexpectedly, it happened over just

Eliza Reid: a couple of months and he'd never

Eliza Reid: run for public office before and,

Eliza Reid: and all of a sudden I have this

Eliza Reid: platform and I, you know, in life

Eliza Reid: you get these unexpected moments,

Eliza Reid: and you face

Eliza Reid: these changes and...

Eliza Reid: This was a positive change.

Eliza Reid: It wasn't a negative change, but

Eliza Reid: it's still quite intimidating.

Eliza Reid: And I really wanted that whole time

Eliza Reid: to make use

Eliza Reid: of that. And again, after these

Eliza Reid: eight wonderful years, when

Eliza Reid: my husband's president, I wanna

Eliza Reid: build on that.

Eliza Reid: I always say, you know, I'm not yet

Eliza Reid: 50 years old.

Eliza Reid: I feel like I have a lot more of

Eliza Reid: my professional life.

Eliza Reid: I don't want that to be kind of the

Eliza Reid: peak of my personal life.

Eliza Reid: I want to build on those networks

Eliza Reid: and experiences that I've had and

Eliza Reid: that, obviously, gender equality,

Eliza Reid: women's empowerment is a hugely

Eliza Reid: important area for me and I think

Eliza Reid: an area where that experience

Eliza Reid: will come to good use.

Kristina Appel: I've said in the intro, Iceland

Kristina Appel: and Germany are doing quite well

Kristina Appel: on a global scale when it comes to

Kristina Appel: equality.

Kristina Appel: You are now, I think, 16 years

Kristina Appel: in a row on first place

Kristina Appel: in the international comparison.

Kristina Appel: Germany's just dropped to

Kristina Appel: 10th place, I think, from 7th.

Kristina Appel: We've always been, the last couple

Kristina Appel: of years, we've been migrating

Kristina Appel: between 7th and 10th.

Kristina Appel: So I think there's consciousness

Kristina Appel: of this issue, but you state in your

Kristina Appel: book over and over, we're not there

Kristina Appel: yet, there is still so much to do.

Kristina Appel: Yet in Germany, we idolize

Kristina Appel: what's happening in Iceland, I mean,

Kristina Appel: we idolize all the Scandinavian

Kristina Appel: countries, but Iceland seems to

Kristina Appel: be a wonderful blueprint, so let's

Kristina Appel: talk about that blueprint and let's

Kristina Appel: talk about what's working out.

Kristina Appel: So you now have a woman as

Kristina Appel: president, right? You have...

Eliza Reid: Not only a woman president, that

Eliza Reid: was, as you said, a woman who won

Eliza Reid: the presidential election after my

Eliza Reid: husband chose not to run for

Eliza Reid: re-election. We also have a

Eliza Reid: female prime minister.

Eliza Reid: There are three political parties

Eliza Reid: that form the government coalition

Eliza Reid: right now, all of them led by women.

Eliza Reid: We have a female bishop of the

Eliza Reid: national church, a female

Eliza Reid: head of the police force,

Eliza Reid: a female mayor of Reykjavík, and the

Eliza Reid: heads of all the parties forming the

Eliza Reid: coalition in the capital of

Eliza Reid: Reykjavík, and all the heads of

Eliza Reid: the universities are all women.

Kristina Appel: My list also has a state prosecutor

Kristina Appel: also.

Eliza Reid: Quite possibly.

Kristina Appel: That's amazing.

Kristina Appel: So you've extended my list, but that

Kristina Appel: is really, really impressive.

Kristina Appel: I don't know if that's something

Kristina Appel: that you'd say for all of them, but

Kristina Appel: are they all feminists?

Eliza Reid: Gosh, well, I don't want to speak

Eliza Reid: for everybody, but I would

Eliza Reid: assume so, only in the sense that

Eliza Reid: I think that the word amongst

Eliza Reid: women, at least the word feminism,

Eliza Reid: I always hope doesn't carry that

Eliza Reid: kind of very heavy political

Eliza Reid: connotations that it carries in

Eliza Reid: many places.

Eliza Reid: I've always tried to use the

Eliza Reid: word feminist a lot to define myself

Eliza Reid: because to me, I'm not

Eliza Reid: trying to make a radical or crazy

Eliza Reid: statement to me being a feminist

Eliza Reid: means that I support

Eliza Reid: equal opportunities for people

Eliza Reid: regardless of their gender and equal

Eliza Reid: things. It doesn't mean that I think

Eliza Reid: that women are better than men for

Eliza Reid: some reason.

Eliza Reid: And so, yes, I would

Eliza Reid: not want to put words in anyone's

Eliza Reid: mouth, but I would think a great

Eliza Reid: number of them are.

Kristina Appel: Because I think that there's...

Kristina Appel: At the moment we have many

Kristina Appel: successful women also

Kristina Appel: in politics in Germany, but not all

Kristina Appel: of them have stepped

Kristina Appel: out of patriarchal

Kristina Appel: mindsets, I would say.

Kristina Appel: So what all these women definitely

Kristina Appel: are is sprakkar, right?

Kristina Appel: So when we talk about your book

Kristina Appel: and the secrets of the sprakkar,

Kristina Appel: all of these women would qualify it,

Kristina Appel: but who are the sprakkar and what

Kristina Appel: makes a sprakkar in your own words?

Eliza Reid: So, sprakkar, as you said, it's

Eliza Reid: an Icelandic word, as you may have

Eliza Reid: guessed.

Eliza Reid: It's the plural of the singular

Eliza Reid: word, sprakki.

Eliza Reid: And it is a very old

Eliza Reid: Icelandic world.

Eliza Reid: It means extraordinary woman,

Eliza Reid: sprakkar are extraordinary women.

Eliza Reid: And just to give you a tiny

Eliza Reid: background on that, because when I

Eliza Reid: was writing my book, "Secrets of the

Eliza Reid: sprakkar", I wanted to

Eliza Reid: incorporate an Icelandic word into

Eliza Reid: the title in the way that sometimes

Eliza Reid: you hear about the Danish concept of

Eliza Reid: Hygge, you know, the coziness, or

Eliza Reid: the Finnish concept of Sisu.

Eliza Reid: I thought, let's find a good

Eliza Reid: Icelandic word that we can kind of

Eliza Reid: adopt into the English language or

Eliza Reid: other languages. And I was really

Eliza Reid: having a tough time finding the

Eliza Reid: right word. And then a friend of

Eliza Reid: a friend found this word,

Eliza Reid: sprakki, sprakkar, because it had

Eliza Reid: really fallen out of usage.

Eliza Reid: So my husband, who I

Eliza Reid: would say has excellent Icelandic,

Eliza Reid: had not heard the word.

Eliza Reid: And my mother-in-law, who was an

Eliza Reid: Icelandic teacher, had not heard of

Eliza Reid: the word. And then I ended up

Eliza Reid: calling a center that we have of

Eliza Reid: sort of Icelandic studies and the

Eliza Reid: director hadn't heard of word and

Eliza Reid: then I got really nervous.

Eliza Reid: But she looked it up and

Eliza Reid: she said, we have a lot of

Eliza Reid: information on the history of

Eliza Reid: language and I think it had last

Eliza Reid: been used, you know, a hundred years

Eliza Reid: ago in a poem or something.

Eliza Reid: And I thought, well, this is a

Eliza Reid: perfect word. We'll bring this back,

Eliza Reid: hopefully into more common usage.

Eliza Reid: And I think, it really says

Eliza Reid: something, as I said, even though it

Eliza Reid: would have fallen out of usage, it

Eliza Reid: wasn't that common.

Eliza Reid: The fact that the language has a

Eliza Reid: word that defines exclusively

Eliza Reid: women in an exclusively positive

Eliza Reid: way is something I think we

Eliza Reid: can adopt in many different

Eliza Reid: languages.

Eliza Reid: And again, it says extraordinary

Eliza Reid: women, diligent women.

Eliza Reid: And so I feel like we can

Eliza Reid: adapt that in any kind of way.

Eliza Reid: I think that amongst people who

Eliza Reid: identify as women, we all have

Eliza Reid: a sprakki within us in

Eliza Reid: some way where we can let

Eliza Reid: our talents and light shine.

Kristina Appel: I think that idea is wonderful

Kristina Appel: because there are so many words that

Kristina Appel: will describe women in a negative

Kristina Appel: or critical way and there's no

Kristina Appel: need to mention them, but I think

Kristina Appel: a word that doesn't need an

Kristina Appel: adjective to describe it in

Kristina Appel: a positive, in a powerful way,

Kristina Appel: in a meaningful way, I think, is very nice.

Eliza Reid: I like your use of the word powerful

Eliza Reid: because we also have words that we

Eliza Reid: think sound positive at

Eliza Reid: first and then we realize they're

Eliza Reid: somehow infantilizing

Eliza Reid: or sexualizing or minimizing

Eliza Reid: women in some other way.

Kristina Appel: Ambitious women.

Eliza Reid: Oh my goodness.

Eliza Reid: Yeah.

Eliza Reid: I just had this conversation

Eliza Reid: with a friend yesterday talking

Eliza Reid: about that word ambitious because

Eliza Reid: when we say it about a man we say it

Eliza Reid: in this sort of admiring way.

Eliza Reid: And when we say it about women, it

Eliza Reid: has this tone of like, she's

Eliza Reid: overstepping her bounds.

Kristina Appel: Absolutely, she wants too much.

Kristina Appel: She's taken up too much space.

Kristina Appel: Yeah, absolutely.

Kristina Appel: I want to talk a little bit about

Kristina Appel: you in Iceland.

Kristina Appel: So how was it possible for you to

Kristina Appel: have four kids in eight years?

Kristina Appel: How is that possible?

Eliza Reid: Well, I mean, aside from the

Eliza Reid: physical process, how all

Eliza Reid: that works, you know, I've often

Eliza Reid: said, as you know I was born and

Eliza Reid: raised in Canada.

Eliza Reid: I moved to another country that does

Eliza Reid: well in terms of gender equality,

Eliza Reid: and I moved to Iceland as an adult.

Eliza Reid: And I'm quite sure that had

Eliza Reid: I built my life in Canada, I

Eliza Reid: wouldn't have had four children

Eliza Reid: because I couldn't have

Eliza Reid: afforded it. It would have been too

Eliza Reid: much work to put together

Eliza Reid: all of a life, if you know

Eliza Reid: what I mean, because still, and

Eliza Reid: also, you know, in Iceland, I think

Eliza Reid: that in heterosexual relationships,

Eliza Reid: it's still women who bear a lot of

Eliza Reid: the brunt of that mental load,

Eliza Reid: right? Kind of, where am I finding

Eliza Reid: the preschool for my children?

Eliza Reid: And how am I remembering this?

Eliza Reid: And do they need new boots this

Eliza Reid: winter? And all of these things.

Eliza Reid: In Iceland, you

Eliza Reid: know, it is a small, it s a

Eliza Reid: family-friendly society.

Eliza Reid: Children are very welcome.

Eliza Reid: So there's a kind of social

Eliza Reid: dimension about the fact that people

Eliza Reid: don't tend to be stigmatized for

Eliza Reid: having children. If you have

Eliza Reid: children young or you go back to the

Eliza Reid: workplace. But the crucial thing, I

Eliza Reid: think, has to do with these

Eliza Reid: structural policies in terms of

Eliza Reid: supports that are provided.

Eliza Reid: So there is parental

Eliza Reid: leave that is paid for by

Eliza Reid: the government to both parents,

Eliza Reid: which is crucial.

Eliza Reid: So the responsibility from an early

Eliza Reid: age of kind of taking on some of

Eliza Reid: that caregiving isn't left to a

Eliza Reid: woman.

Eliza Reid: It's constantly increasing.

Eliza Reid: It was a total of nine months

Eliza Reid: between the two parents.

Eliza Reid: When I had my children, it's now up

Eliza Reid: to a year.

Eliza Reid: You can take longer at less fee.

Eliza Reid: But you know, essentially the idea

Eliza Reid: is that one parent gets a number

Eliza Reid: of months, the other parent gets a

Eliza Reid: number of month, and then there's a

Eliza Reid: third section that you can split a

Eliza Reid: little bit. But one parent

Eliza Reid: can't take all of it.

Eliza Reid: And that's the crucial factor,

Eliza Reid: which again means that

Eliza Reid: many, many fathers, most fathers,

Eliza Reid: take parental leave.

Eliza Reid: And that helps even the

Eliza Reid: playing field out.

Eliza Reid: And then once people go back to

Eliza Reid: work, and Iceland has

Eliza Reid: very, I think it's the highest or

Eliza Reid: used to be at least the highest

Eliza Reid: percentage of, female percentage,

Eliza Reid: participation in the workforce of

Eliza Reid: the OECD countries.

Eliza Reid: The child care system is

Eliza Reid: heavily subsidized as well.

Eliza Reid: Again, imperfect and

Eliza Reid: you can imagine in the media here

Eliza Reid: all the debates about how qualify

Eliza Reid: the teachers, when are the hours,

Eliza Reid: how long is the waiting list, of

Eliza Reid: course.

Eliza Reid: But essentially the idea is

Eliza Reid: that it's meant to be provided from

Eliza Reid: the age of two, very, very

Eliza Reid: or often one.

Eliza Reid: School isn't compulsory until the

Eliza Reid: age of six, but those long

Eliza Reid: years before almost

Eliza Reid: all children take part in

Eliza Reid: that. And that, again, reduces a

Eliza Reid: stigma of this idea of,

Eliza Reid: oh, are your children in preschool?

Eliza Reid: You're not home with them?

Eliza Reid: That's it. You don't see that kind

Eliza Reid: of a stigma either.

Eliza Reid: So I would say those are

Eliza Reid: the big things.

Eliza Reid: So we had our children two years

Eliza Reid: apart. When I was on maternity

Eliza Reid: leave with my youngest child, I had,

Eliza Reid: my oldest was starting the first

Eliza Reid: year of elementary school when he

Eliza Reid: was six. And then I had two children

Eliza Reid: who were in full-time preschool.

Eliza Reid: But because it's so subsidized, it's

Eliza Reid: cheaper when they're siblings.

Eliza Reid: You would never think to not have

Eliza Reid: them in school while you're at home

Eliza Reid: with one of them.

Eliza Reid: So I was very productive that year

Eliza Reid: because I had the confidence of

Eliza Reid: having had four children, but I only

Eliza Reid: had one with me all day.

Kristina Appel: I mean, that's amazing.

Kristina Appel: I've just had a conversation with a

Kristina Appel: friend whose sister didn't

Kristina Appel: get a place for her child in

Kristina Appel: childcare because she had just

Kristina Appel: given birth to her second child.

Kristina Appel: So they said, you're at home anyway,

Kristina Appel: so you don't need this place.

Kristina Appel: I think that's a whole different

Kristina Appel: mindset, right?

Kristina Appel: It's, I think every woman, even if

Kristina Appel: she only has one child deserves for

Kristina Appel: those hours that a child can be

Kristina Appel: given away into care.

Eliza Reid: And I think it's good for the kids

Eliza Reid: in a sense, right?

Eliza Reid: In Iceland, it's called a leikskóli,

Eliza Reid: which is a play school.

Eliza Reid: And again, the emphasis isn't that

Eliza Reid: they are learning musical

Eliza Reid: instruments at the age of two or 15

Eliza Reid: languages, they're learning to

Eliza Reid: interact with each other and

Eliza Reid: to play and to have fun.

Eliza Reid: And that of course teaches a lot of

Eliza Reid: skills, but the emphasis is on a

Eliza Reid: sort of academic learning at

Eliza Reid: that early stage.

Eliza Reid: I mentioned some statistics in my

Eliza Reid: book about, you know, divorce rates

Eliza Reid: lower when parents have taken

Eliza Reid: parental leave, depression rates

Eliza Reid: when the kids become teenagers are

Eliza Reid: lower. And just that simple thing

Eliza Reid: that, you know, when the kids wake

Eliza Reid: up with a fever in the middle of the

Eliza Reid: night or the flu or all these things

Eliza Reid: that anyone with young children

Eliza Reid: knows, they don't think, I only want

Eliza Reid: my mom.

Eliza Reid: They think I can have either of my

Eliza Reid: parents or, you, know, very often

Eliza Reid: that that's the case.

Eliza Reid: And I think that's good for

Eliza Reid: role models as well.

Eliza Reid: You know, three of my four children

Eliza Reid: are boys.

Eliza Reid: And I hope that they have grown

Eliza Reid: up not thinking that

Eliza Reid: the joys of parenthood and the

Eliza Reid: responsibility of parenthod fall

Eliza Reid: only on mothers, but

Eliza Reid: that they can be excited about

Eliza Reid: becoming fathers when they're older

Eliza Reid: if they want to be.

Eliza Reid: And I think the other point, as you

Eliza Reid: said about that societal change, you

Eliza Reid: know, we talk a lot about policies,

Eliza Reid: government changes, laws, and I've

Eliza Reid: just given you a number of examples

Eliza Reid: of the way that governments are

Eliza Reid: subsidized and pay this leave.

Eliza Reid: And of course, it's very important.

Eliza Reid: But a lot of that shift is that

Eliza Reid: person to person societal mindset.

Eliza Reid: And so I think we can't forget

Eliza Reid: when we want to kind of

Eliza Reid: do our part to change the world,

Eliza Reid: that I always try to emphasize

Eliza Reid: that it's more than just say,

Eliza Reid: voting for a political party

Eliza Reid: that implements that, but actually

Eliza Reid: making that societal mindset

Eliza Reid: ourselves, because that is a

Eliza Reid: place where we can all make a

Eliza Reid: difference and all have that

Eliza Reid: role. And I think men have a

Eliza Reid: really important role to play in

Eliza Reid: that, right? That's a...

Eliza Reid: Parental leave, fatherhood is a

Eliza Reid: huge area where we can

Eliza Reid: really showcase the positive aspects

Eliza Reid: of equality, right?

Eliza Reid: Where we can give them a chance

Eliza Reid: to, you know, I've yet to meet a dad

Eliza Reid: that said, oh, I hated taking

Eliza Reid: parental leave. That was the worst

Eliza Reid: time. I didn't enjoy that at all.

Eliza Reid: And I think that the

Eliza Reid: more men that are speaking up, you

Eliza Reid: know, they don't face that penalty

Eliza Reid: of going back to work and earning

Eliza Reid: lower salary, in a sense,

Eliza Reid: the more that they talk about that

Eliza Reid: and normalize that I think that

Eliza Reid: that's really important. And we

Eliza Reid: women, too, again, need to give them

Eliza Reid: that space to not say,

Eliza Reid: you know, oh, oh, is that all they

Eliza Reid: had for lunch today?

Eliza Reid: When you're on leave?

Eliza Reid: Oh I would have given them...

Eliza Reid: You know, that again diminishes

Eliza Reid: their contribution and we all do

Eliza Reid: things in different ways.

Kristina Appel: That's true.

Kristina Appel: Let's talk about going back to work

Kristina Appel: because I was quite impressed.

Kristina Appel: And you say that 77 percent of

Kristina Appel: women are working.

Kristina Appel: So only 36.9 percent

Kristina Appel: of employed women work part time

Kristina Appel: in Iceland.

Kristina Appel: It's 17 percent for the men in

Kristina Appel: Iceland. In Germany it's 49

Kristina Appel: percent women work in hard

Kristina Appel: time and only 12 percent of men do.

Kristina Appel: So this is where German women

Kristina Appel: significantly reduce their pensions.

Kristina Appel: You know, I'm not talking just about

Kristina Appel: mental health and what it means to

Kristina Appel: be at home with the child all the

Kristina Appel: time and work part-time and be

Kristina Appel: short on time all the time,

Kristina Appel: and burning the candle at both ends,

Kristina Appel: but it also has significant

Kristina Appel: effects on financial safety and

Kristina Appel: in old age.

Kristina Appel: So how does that work in Iceland?

Kristina Appel: Is this, is it normal to come back

Kristina Appel: to your old job?

Kristina Appel: Are there incentives for employers?

Kristina Appel: What do you do?

Eliza Reid: I say that sort of anecdotally, but

Eliza Reid: again, I think a lot of people go

Eliza Reid: back to jobs. An advantage.

Eliza Reid: We have, again, kind of a small

Eliza Reid: society.

Eliza Reid: So you're not commuting to work for

Eliza Reid: an hour and a half each day.

Eliza Reid: But it's also because the schools

Eliza Reid: have these after-school-programs,

Eliza Reid: you know, and so they can

Eliza Reid: be kind of occupied during the day.

Eliza Reid: Now a lot of it's built around

Eliza Reid: having a two-parent-household.

Eliza Reid: So maybe one parent drops the

Eliza Reid: child off and the other one picks

Eliza Reid: them up.

Eliza Reid: I can't remember now if it's Germany

Eliza Reid: or regions of Germany or not,

Eliza Reid: but certainly in other you know,

Eliza Reid: German-speaking countries, there's

Eliza Reid: some times where this tradition of

Eliza Reid: like having two hour lunches from

Eliza Reid: school or long periods of

Eliza Reid: time when someone needs

Eliza Reid: to be at home with the kids, right?

Eliza Reid: So in theory, they're in school, but

Eliza Reid: they're not in school.

Eliza Reid: And again, that kind

Eliza Reid: of discourages people from

Eliza Reid: going into work and doing the work.

Eliza Reid: I think you're obviously right with

Eliza Reid: the pensions. You know, it's something

Eliza Reid: that I thought about a lot, serving

Eliza Reid: as first lady, which is a voluntary

Eliza Reid: job. So for eight years,

Eliza Reid: I wasn't contributing in the same

Eliza Reid: way to my pension either.

Eliza Reid: And there's been a legal change in

Eliza Reid: Iceland to that it doesn't have to

Eliza Reid: have any children but couples if

Eliza Reid: they wish to one point in

Eliza Reid: their marriage can pool their

Eliza Reid: pension payments so

Eliza Reid: that they would each earn the

Eliza Reid: same the same pensions you know if

Eliza Reid: they if they choose to do that as

Eliza Reid: well.

Kristina Appel: What I was actually surprised to

Kristina Appel: read is that you don't

Kristina Appel: shine when it comes to women in

Kristina Appel: leadership position in the private

Kristina Appel: sector, which to me is,

Kristina Appel: it's hard to understand when it

Kristina Appel: works so well in politics, for

Kristina Appel: example.

Eliza Reid: Yeah, I think you're right.

Eliza Reid: I mean, no, we say we don't shine.

Eliza Reid: We're not awful.

Eliza Reid: But we're not in the top,

Eliza Reid: top levels, as you said,

Eliza Reid: in the sense that we are with other

Eliza Reid: rankings like women in politics.

Eliza Reid: I know when I was First Lady, I

Eliza Reid: worked a lot with an initiative to

Eliza Reid: highlight the promotion

Eliza Reid: of women in these leadership

Eliza Reid: positions. And we also have quotas

Eliza Reid: and have had for a number of years

Eliza Reid: on, say, the boards of publicly

Eliza Reid: traded companies.

Eliza Reid: So again, these were initiatives to

Eliza Reid: kind of speed up

Eliza Reid: that process, right?

Eliza Reid: Because people would say, well, it's

Eliza Reid: naturally gonna happen.

Eliza Reid: You know, we've got... Women are

Eliza Reid: obviously just as well educated as

Eliza Reid: men, if not better educated than

Eliza Reid: men. So we can't say that there

Eliza Reid: aren't qualified women and still it

Eliza Reid: kind of wasn't happening.

Eliza Reid: We also have these laws about equal

Eliza Reid: pay for equal work.

Eliza Reid: So why are we not seeing that

Eliza Reid: reflected in the

Eliza Reid: so-called C-suite high executive

Eliza Reid: offices and CEOs?

Eliza Reid: And I think, you know, there's a

Eliza Reid: complex answer. So I was involved a

Eliza Reid: lot with an initiative.

Eliza Reid: And when I say involved, I claim

Eliza Reid: none of the credit for doing all the

Eliza Reid: hard work, but I would just present

Eliza Reid: the awards just before we do

Eliza Reid: this.

Eliza Reid: But where companies and

Eliza Reid: organizations, but also

Eliza Reid: municipalities and charities could

Eliza Reid: sign on to a pledge to achieve.

Eliza Reid: 40:60 or 60:40 gender

Eliza Reid: balance on their senior management

Eliza Reid: levels by 2027.

Eliza Reid: And every year there would be a big

Eliza Reid: ceremony where you would recognize

Eliza Reid: the companies that achieved that and

Eliza Reid: acknowledge the companies that had

Eliza Reid: signed on to that pledge.

Eliza Reid: And I think part of that process is

Eliza Reid: again, this idea that, you

Eliza Reid: know, you talk about it and, uh,

Eliza Reid: people looking for come, you know,

Eliza Reid: they want to work for companies that

Eliza Reid: have that as an ambition.

Eliza Reid: So I think there is a bit of a

Eliza Reid: snowball effect to it.

Eliza Reid: And I think that's partially maybe

Eliza Reid: why we see that in women in

Eliza Reid: leadership. That's why role models

Eliza Reid: are so important because we have had

Eliza Reid: female role models for a while in

Eliza Reid: politics, in leadership, and that

Eliza Reid: kind of builds on itself.

Eliza Reid: If we have these number, I mentioned

Eliza Reid: all these women leading

Eliza Reid: political parties, then

Eliza Reid: people tend to vote not because

Eliza Reid: they're being led by a woman, but

Eliza Reid: because of the viewpoints

Eliza Reid: of a political party, which is how

Eliza Reid: we should have it, right?

Eliza Reid: So, I think it's just something

Eliza Reid: that we need to continue to work

Eliza Reid: at. And I think part of that is that

Eliza Reid: sort of a boys club mentality,

Eliza Reid: right? When we're looking

Eliza Reid: to promote, when we're looking

Eliza Reid: to hire, we think about people who

Eliza Reid: are like us and

Eliza Reid: whatever that is.

Eliza Reid: And so we have to kind of be

Eliza Reid: aware of those blind spots and

Eliza Reid: really make

Eliza Reid: a conscious choice.

Eliza Reid: The slogan of that campaign is

Eliza Reid: "Equality is a choice".

Eliza Reid: And I think that's true.

Eliza Reid: It doesn't happen of its own accord

Eliza Reid: or certainly not happens

Eliza Reid: fast enough. We have to really

Eliza Reid: take conscious steps to

Eliza Reid: sort of inch it forward in the right

Eliza Reid: direction.

Kristina Appel: Yeah, and that's why reading your

Kristina Appel: book and

Kristina Appel: looking into the facts and figures,

Kristina Appel: I felt that this is all a question

Kristina Appel: of mindset, but we'll continue

Kristina Appel: talking about that.

Kristina Appel: Because when you just talked about

Kristina Appel: the pledge, we have a similar thing

Kristina Appel: in Germany, many companies just

Kristina Appel: pledged zero percent, you know,

Kristina Appel: they were only measured on whether

Kristina Appel: they succeeded

Kristina Appel: in reaching their pledges, but it

Kristina Appel: was absolutely okay for

Kristina Appel: them to pledge zero women,

Kristina Appel: zero women on the board is fine by

Kristina Appel: us.

Kristina Appel: And I think that's where the

Kristina Appel: different mindset is.

Eliza Reid: There was something in Germany I

Eliza Reid: saw, and I've traveled quite a few

Eliza Reid: times to Germany to do these

Eliza Reid: different talks places.

Eliza Reid: And I'm always encouraged by that

Eliza Reid: because I think that there really

Eliza Reid: is an appetite among people

Eliza Reid: to keep working towards

Eliza Reid: things, keep doing things.

Eliza Reid: And I think, that is encouraging

Eliza Reid: because even though the

Eliza Reid: people watching this right now might

Eliza Reid: be kind of already on board with the

Eliza Reid: fundamental ideas of what we're

Eliza Reid: doing. I don't think I'm necessarily

Eliza Reid: changing minds, but hopefully it

Eliza Reid: injects a bit of enthusiasm, a bit

Eliza Reid: of inspiration for people to know

Eliza Reid: that you are not alone.

Eliza Reid: And that slowly but surely it all

Eliza Reid: is making a tiny difference in

Eliza Reid: that there is a lot of power

Eliza Reid: in solidarity.

Eliza Reid: And so, you know,

Eliza Reid: I think I started to say, I can't

Eliza Reid: remember when it was, but there was

Eliza Reid: a big publication I saw where they

Eliza Reid: were publishing the names of the

Eliza Reid: German companies.

Kristina Appel: I think you mean the Albright.

Kristina Appel: The AllBright Foundation, is that

Kristina Appel: what you were talking about?

Kristina Appel: They publish which

Kristina Appel: companies have increased women

Kristina Appel: in the pivotal positions and

Kristina Appel: which have dropped down and they

Kristina Appel: send out letters to them and

Kristina Appel: they have like a traffic light

Kristina Appel: system. You know, you get a red

Kristina Appel: envelope or a yellow envelope or

Kristina Appel: green envelope.

Kristina Appel: It's very useful because it raises

Kristina Appel: awareness.

Kristina Appel: Do you reckon that the structural

Kristina Appel: changes in Iceland are possible

Kristina Appel: or are being implemented because

Kristina Appel: there have always been more women in

Kristina Appel: politics and they have more

Kristina Appel: voice?

Eliza Reid: No, I would actually, I think,

Eliza Reid: I mean, there haven't always been

Eliza Reid: more women in politics, is I guess

Eliza Reid: the point. We also, you know, come

Eliza Reid: from a patriarchal society.

Eliza Reid: And I think if anything, that just

Eliza Reid: shows us that change is possible.

Eliza Reid: It isn't because it's always been

Eliza Reid: this way. It's because we gradually

Eliza Reid: realized that the more

Eliza Reid: we can be equal, the better it is

Eliza Reid: for everybody in the society.

Eliza Reid: There's a story I mentioned right

Eliza Reid: near the end of the book, which is a

Eliza Reid: well-known story in Iceland.

Eliza Reid: I don't know how well known it is

Eliza Reid: everywhere else about the day in

Eliza Reid: 1975 when

Eliza Reid: the country's women took the day

Eliza Reid: off.

Eliza Reid: And, you know, it's fun to mention

Eliza Reid: now because this is the 50th

Eliza Reid: anniversary of that women's

Eliza Reid: day off, right?

Eliza Reid: That happened in 1975 when a group

Eliza Reid: of women thought, we've got to

Eliza Reid: protest the wage inequalities, all

Eliza Reid: kinds of inequalities that are going

Eliza Reid: on. And at first they thought,

Eliza Reid: why don't we just show people how

Eliza Reid: society doesn't work?

Eliza Reid: We're gonna have a strike for a day.

Eliza Reid: Other women said, oh, I want

Eliza Reid: more equality, but I don't like the

Eliza Reid: word strike. It to me is too

Eliza Reid: leftist or it's, you know, too

Eliza Reid: aggressive. And so people

Eliza Reid: said, okay, let's not do that.

Eliza Reid: Let's call it a day off.

Eliza Reid: And I say, that's a small point in

Eliza Reid: the whole thing, but I say that

Eliza Reid: because it shows you that they were

Eliza Reid: looking, they didn't kind of get

Eliza Reid: bogged down in the weeds of the

Eliza Reid: details of what they were doing.

Eliza Reid: They looked at the bigger picture

Eliza Reid: and they decided in

Eliza Reid: 1975, again, before, obviously

Eliza Reid: before social media, we're going to

Eliza Reid: take the day off, it means you don't

Eliza Reid: look after your children that day,

Eliza Reid: you don't go to work.

Eliza Reid: And if you want to gather and sing

Eliza Reid: songs in the center of Reykjavík or

Eliza Reid: in the center of the town, then you

Eliza Reid: can do that.

Eliza Reid: And 90 percent of the country's

Eliza Reid: women took part in that day.

Eliza Reid: And it made global headlines.

Eliza Reid: What happens in a society when you

Eliza Reid: take a day off?

Eliza Reid: Nothing happens, obviously, because

Eliza Reid: women run the society.

Eliza Reid: So men were trying to take their

Eliza Reid: kids to work and it didn't work and

Eliza Reid: the planes didn't run and the banks

Eliza Reid: were closed and the newspapers

Eliza Reid: couldn't print.

Eliza Reid: So it really had an impact.

Eliza Reid: And I think one of the biggest

Eliza Reid: impacts was that it galvanized the

Eliza Reid: population to know that we

Eliza Reid: can all make a difference, that

Eliza Reid: everybody can contribute.

Eliza Reid: And it was after that that we

Eliza Reid: saw more rapid change in

Eliza Reid: society.

Eliza Reid: So in 1985 years later,

Eliza Reid: we elected the world's first

Eliza Reid: democratically elected female head

Eliza Reid: of state. We had a female president

Eliza Reid: for then for 16 years, an entire

Eliza Reid: generation, but also

Eliza Reid: they formed a women's list party

Eliza Reid: in politics, first at

Eliza Reid: the municipal level, then at the

Eliza Reid: national level. And again, people

Eliza Reid: said, oh, who's gonna vote for a

Eliza Reid: women list? That doesn't matter.

Eliza Reid: All of a sudden they elected a

Eliza Reid: number of MPs to parliament, which

Eliza Reid: made that other parties started

Eliza Reid: adding women to their lists.

Eliza Reid: So, you know, these are, and then

Eliza Reid: once they added women to their list

Eliza Reid: and they were represented more

Eliza Reid: on municipality boards, then there

Eliza Reid: was more support for

Eliza Reid: childcare, then there were more

Eliza Reid: family-friendly policies.

Eliza Reid: And so all of that started to

Eliza Reid: build on itself.

Eliza Reid: But it wasn't because we have a

Eliza Reid: thousand year history of equal

Eliza Reid: representation at decision-making

Eliza Reid: levels. It was really, you could

Eliza Reid: almost say it was grassroots in that

Eliza Reid: sense from those organizations, but

Eliza Reid: it also just starts to build

Eliza Reid: on itself. And so I think, again,

Eliza Reid: that is an encouraging message

Eliza Reid: for other organizations

Eliza Reid: to say, look, it doesn't mean it

Eliza Reid: can't happen because it hasn't

Eliza Reid: happened yet.

Kristina Appel: I'm just thinking we just had a

Kristina Appel: big incentive called "Parity Now",

Kristina Appel: which was trying to introduce

Kristina Appel: a new law, giving equal seats

Kristina Appel: of parliament to women and

Kristina Appel: men, and you naturally reached

Kristina Appel: 46 percent, I think, in

Kristina Appel: your national parliament, we're at

Kristina Appel: 35.7 and it

Kristina Appel: failed. And I think partly it failed

Kristina Appel: because it was such a

Kristina Appel: long winding process of

Kristina Appel: getting online, logging on, writing

Kristina Appel: the letter, signing the petition.

Kristina Appel: And so what does that tell me?

Kristina Appel: I think we're not as open

Kristina Appel: to these ideas. I think it takes us

Kristina Appel: more effort to make this extra

Kristina Appel: step of saying, oh yeah, but we want

Kristina Appel: this. So let's, let's do it.

Kristina Appel: Let's go out there.

Kristina Appel: And my bubble has been calling for a

Kristina Appel: strike in after your example

Kristina Appel: for a long time.

Kristina Appel: And the documentary on your women's

Kristina Appel: day off was just released in Germany

Kristina Appel: last year.

Kristina Appel: And my internet bubble was full of

Kristina Appel: calls for a day off.

Eliza Reid: I love that documentary.

Eliza Reid: It's great.

Eliza Reid: Well, you know, it's interesting,

Eliza Reid: you talk about the 40, 46

Eliza Reid: percent of parliament, it's just

Eliza Reid: true, we don't have a quota-led

Eliza Reid: parliament.

Eliza Reid: However, within political

Eliza Reid: parties, many of those parties have

Eliza Reid: their own either official or

Eliza Reid: unofficial quotas for their party

Eliza Reid: list.

Eliza Reid: So many of those parties,

Eliza Reid: within them, say like the

Eliza Reid: top number of our lists have to have

Eliza Reid: gender balance, one of the parties

Eliza Reid: actually had to switch, you know,

Eliza Reid: promote men more because they had

Eliza Reid: more women going up.

Eliza Reid: But that's part of the reason why

Eliza Reid: then it comes into parliament.

Eliza Reid: But you raise an interesting point

Eliza Reid: there where you talked about filling

Eliza Reid: in the forms and the hassle and

Eliza Reid: doing all this. And I think, and

Eliza Reid: it's something that I noticed here

Eliza Reid: in Iceland and it might not surprise

Eliza Reid: me a little bit in Germany as well,

Eliza Reid: because you said, you know, you're

Eliza Reid: in the top 10 here.

Eliza Reid: So by comparison to the globe

Eliza Reid: where women,

Eliza Reid: you know, can't get an education,

Eliza Reid: where sexual violence is kind

Eliza Reid: of almost a state condoned.

Eliza Reid: Use of things where women

Eliza Reid: aren't legally, their rights

Eliza Reid: aren't legally enshrined in laws,

Eliza Reid: etc. Germany is doing okay.

Eliza Reid: And I think that in

Eliza Reid: a sense is a challenge for us in

Eliza Reid: some of these countries is the

Eliza Reid: danger of complacency.

Eliza Reid: It's that people think that things

Eliza Reid: are kind of good enough.

Eliza Reid: And I worry

Eliza Reid: that people think good enough

Eliza Reid: is good enough, and

Eliza Reid: it isn't.

Eliza Reid: We had another day

Eliza Reid: off in 2023.

Eliza Reid: Sometimes we have these regular days

Eliza Reid: off to remind people that we have

Eliza Reid: not achieved gender equality.

Eliza Reid: And I remember I was asking people,

Eliza Reid: so are you taking the day off?

Eliza Reid: Are you going to town?

Eliza Reid: And people said, oh, I'm

Eliza Reid: not, actually I'm going to look after

Eliza Reid: my kids. And so what about your

Eliza Reid: husband?

Eliza Reid: He's got such an important job, you

Eliza Reid: know, he can't do it, or I can't do

Eliza Reid: this. And I remember thinking, and

Eliza Reid: I mean, that event was a success.

Eliza Reid: Lots of people went, but you know,

Eliza Reid: anecdotally spoken, and remember

Eliza Reid: thinking you know these people, they

Eliza Reid: have a decent job.

Eliza Reid: They've got a good education.

Eliza Reid: They aren't worried about their

Eliza Reid: personal safety, it's fine

Eliza Reid: for them, right?

Eliza Reid: They're, okay.

Eliza Reid: And I kept thinking, but for

Eliza Reid: all of the people who want to be

Eliza Reid: there that day, who can't, because

Eliza Reid: they have three jobs, they might

Eliza Reid: be fired from, because they

Eliza Reid: live in an insecure home

Eliza Reid: environment where they're worried

Eliza Reid: about their safety or their

Eliza Reid: children's safety, those are the

Eliza Reid: people who we need to go for because

Eliza Reid: those of us in a privileged

Eliza Reid: situation have to remember that

Eliza Reid: others aren't. And I think that

Eliza Reid: a challenge for many of us here

Eliza Reid: in Iceland and probably also in

Eliza Reid: Germany is to kind of

Eliza Reid: kick that complacency to say,

Eliza Reid: you know, it is probably fine,

Eliza Reid: maybe you do have a job and it's

Eliza Reid: fine. And yeah, you earn a bit less

Eliza Reid: than your husband earns, or,

Eliza Reid: you know you have to remember all

Eliza Reid: the birthdays and they don't, but

Eliza Reid: isn't that just okay?

Eliza Reid: You know, why do I need to kind of

Eliza Reid: put my neck out?

Eliza Reid: And I think that that is a challenge

Eliza Reid: the closer that we get to achieving

Eliza Reid: this, is to remember how

Eliza Reid: important it is and how important is

Eliza Reid: for so many people who aren't

Eliza Reid: able to speak up about it, right?

Eliza Reid: Or who are facing, as you said that,

Eliza Reid: you know, gender-based violence is

Eliza Reid: a huge example.

Eliza Reid: In Iceland, obviously, you now, our

Eliza Reid: women's shelter is full of people

Eliza Reid: and there's still crises

Eliza Reid: of gender- based violence

Eliza Reid: and, you, know, victims

Eliza Reid: of femicide.

Eliza Reid: And if, you how can we say whether

Eliza Reid: we're doing so well in the world

Eliza Reid: when...

Eliza Reid: You know, we have a society that

Eliza Reid: allows that, you know even if it

Eliza Reid: doesn't kind of legally allow it,

Eliza Reid: right?

Eliza Reid: So I think that that

Eliza Reid: is something and combating

Eliza Reid: complacency is a

Eliza Reid: challenge because it has to

Eliza Reid: do with convincing everybody

Eliza Reid: that it is

Eliza Reid: worth our time and our energy

Eliza Reid: even when we have a lot of demands

Eliza Reid: in our time. And you know, we've

Eliza Reid: changed, I mean, we could have this

Eliza Reid: dialog forever, of course, you know.

Eliza Reid: We talked about women's empowerment

Eliza Reid: and how, you know, many of us teach

Eliza Reid: our daughters, you can do anything

Eliza Reid: and you can be everything.

Eliza Reid: But have we changed how

Eliza Reid: we're raising our men and what

Eliza Reid: a "real man" is like?

Eliza Reid: And we still have this kind of

Eliza Reid: narrow definition of

Eliza Reid: manliness and and where men

Eliza Reid: fit into society.

Eliza Reid: And I think that there is kind of a

Eliza Reid: crisis as well for them that if they

Eliza Reid: don't fit into this very narrow box

Eliza Reid: and they don t feel like they

Eliza Reid: necessarily have a place or

Eliza Reid: belonging, which makes them want to

Eliza Reid: figure out, who do I blame for not

Eliza Reid: having that sense of belonging or

Eliza Reid: not have that entitlement that I

Eliza Reid: thought that I should

Eliza Reid: have. And I think that we do

Eliza Reid: need to maintain when

Eliza Reid: it's coming to general quality,

Eliza Reid: like, room for dialogue to make sure

Eliza Reid: that people can contribute and

Eliza Reid: everybody feels like they have an

Eliza Reid: opportunity because the

Eliza Reid: statistics tell us and the data tell

Eliza Reid: us that more gender-equal

Eliza Reid: societies are better for men too, of

Eliza Reid: course.

Eliza Reid: And men are happier, men are more

Eliza Reid: peaceful, men live longer

Eliza Reid: lives in more gender equal

Eliza Reid: societies. But if they don't believe

Eliza Reid: that, then they need to look at

Eliza Reid: that because there's still a

Eliza Reid: very strong perception that this is

Eliza Reid: a women's-only issue.

Eliza Reid: And, you know, yeah, we've got a lot

Eliza Reid: to gain. We're a lot farther behind

Eliza Reid: in a lot of areas.

Eliza Reid: But we need allies too.

Kristina Appel: What really struck me was your

Kristina Appel: chapter on sexuality

Kristina Appel: and bodily

Kristina Appel: determination and

Kristina Appel: also queerness.

Kristina Appel: Because I think this is where it's

Kristina Appel: hard for people who are

Kristina Appel: almost there in saying,

Kristina Appel: yes, women should have equal rights,

Kristina Appel: but then we don't get to the

Kristina Appel: intersectionality of it.

Kristina Appel: We're not there.

Kristina Appel: We still need to talk about migrants

Kristina Appel: and people with

Kristina Appel: different community.

Kristina Appel: All kinds of people that chapter

Kristina Appel: made me happy that this whole

Kristina Appel: three, three in the morning...

Eliza Reid: Quarter-to-three culture.

Kristina Appel: Quarter-to-three culture, women

Kristina Appel: not being blamed for living out

Kristina Appel: their sexuality.

Kristina Appel: Can you tell us more about that?

Kristina Appel: How does, I mean, it's hard to

Kristina Appel: believe...

Eliza Reid: I found it hard to believe too, you

Eliza Reid: know, and I, as I said, born and

Eliza Reid: raised in Canada. So the fact that I

Eliza Reid: was writing this chapter about sex,

Eliza Reid: I was like, my mother is going to

Eliza Reid: read this.

Eliza Reid: And so, you, know, I have to get

Eliza Reid: over my own prejudices and

Eliza Reid: qualms about this, which I would say

Eliza Reid: I absolutely have, you have been

Eliza Reid: raised in different culture.

Eliza Reid: But to me, it was

Eliza Reid: a noticeable thing when I moved to

Eliza Reid: Iceland, again, it's imperfect,

Eliza Reid: but certainly a much more

Eliza Reid: liberal and I would probably

Eliza Reid: hazard a kind of Nordic overall

Eliza Reid: guess, open-minded

Eliza Reid: approach to sexuality

Eliza Reid: and sex in general.

Eliza Reid: And, and that has to do with, you

Eliza Reid: know, in Iceland, most people aren't

Eliza Reid: married when they have children.

Eliza Reid: There isn't any stigma towards

Eliza Reid: single mothers.

Eliza Reid: There's a you know and again, that

Eliza Reid: has to do with that power dynamic

Eliza Reid: that you mentioned before, right?

Eliza Reid: That like men are sort of seen to

Eliza Reid: be like sowing their wild oats as

Eliza Reid: part of a part of the culture being

Eliza Reid: man. And then why can't women do

Eliza Reid: that as well?

Eliza Reid: And I think that that's sort of an

Eliza Reid: important dimension.

Eliza Reid: Yeah, in the book, which is kind of

Eliza Reid: broken down in different facets of

Eliza Reid: society. And that was something that

Eliza Reid: was really important for me to talk

Eliza Reid: about. But so, as you said,

Eliza Reid: one is the queer dimension,

Eliza Reid: both the LGBTQ community,

Eliza Reid: the trans community, and I

Eliza Reid: think overall, all facets of

Eliza Reid: intersectionality we need to look

Eliza Reid: at.

Eliza Reid: And again, I have to confess, when I

Eliza Reid: started writing this book, I was

Eliza Reid: thinking intersectionality, it's

Eliza Reid: such a technical kind of jargony

Eliza Reid: word. And I really wanted to write

Eliza Reid: a book that wasn't

Eliza Reid: super data heavy, you know, that was

Eliza Reid: an everyday book for people that

Eliza Reid: you'd finish reading and think it

Eliza Reid: was funny in places and kind of be

Eliza Reid: inspired and not that it was this,

Eliza Reid: like, angry ranting and

Eliza Reid: raving data-driven book, but and

Eliza Reid: then you know I can't

Eliza Reid: think of a different word other than

Eliza Reid: intersectionality which I found is

Eliza Reid: just personally an intimidating

Eliza Reid: word, you know, if you're not

Eliza Reid: kind of a specialist in this area

Eliza Reid: but that to me is just that

Eliza Reid: importance of recognizing that

Eliza Reid: you know, my experience as

Eliza Reid: a white, educated,

Eliza Reid: heterosexually able-bodied woman is

Eliza Reid: going to be different than somebody

Eliza Reid: else's with different things in that

Eliza Reid: we all need to be aware of that.

Eliza Reid: And I hope that that makes it more

Eliza Reid: accessible, right?

Eliza Reid: I think all of us want

Eliza Reid: or I hope that many of us, you know

Eliza Reid: we want to be open-minded.

Eliza Reid: We want to try to

Eliza Reid: remember that and we all have our

Eliza Reid: own blind spots, obviously.

Eliza Reid: And so we have to have room in that

Eliza Reid: dialogue for kind of

Eliza Reid: acknowledging those blind spots and

Eliza Reid: working to fix them, but

Eliza Reid: acknowledging that other people

Eliza Reid: will, too. And that's kind of

Eliza Reid: part of the dialogue.

Eliza Reid: There's one other point that I'll

Eliza Reid: mention that kind of, you just sort

Eliza Reid: of sparked an idea in me when you

Eliza Reid: were talking about that and you

Eliza Reid: talked about solidarity

Eliza Reid: or talking about different things.

Eliza Reid: And it's just a general point that

Eliza Reid: I would bring up because you know,

Eliza Reid: you mentioned at the beginning, all

Eliza Reid: these women in Iceland.

Eliza Reid: Here we are talking about Iceland,

Eliza Reid: giving you some examples.

Eliza Reid: We've got all these woman in

Eliza Reid: leadership positions in Iceland,

Eliza Reid: right? So you could have talked to a

Eliza Reid: great number of people.

Eliza Reid: And here you're talking to me, who

Eliza Reid: served kind of in an unofficial

Eliza Reid: position that I wasn't elected

Eliza Reid: to, that really I got this platform

Eliza Reid: because of something my husband did,

Eliza Reid: which is quite ironic when it comes

Eliza Reid: to gender equality and I think

Eliza Reid: took me personally a

Eliza Reid: little while to get over because I

Eliza Reid: thought I can't, I'm not allowed to

Eliza Reid: talk about this because I don't have

Eliza Reid: a, it's not a real position and

Eliza Reid: women were kind of told

Eliza Reid: not to rock the boat and not to do

Eliza Reid: anything different.

Eliza Reid: And I wrote a book about

Eliza Reid: it because I thought it's important

Eliza Reid: to say, look, you don't have to be

Eliza Reid: the president or the prime minister,

Eliza Reid: you have a great platform then to do

Eliza Reid: that. But we all have an obligation

Eliza Reid: to speak up and we all have an

Eliza Reid: obligation to kind of use our

Eliza Reid: networks and our platforms.

Eliza Reid: And so it's taken me a while,

Eliza Reid: but I feel like to get over that

Eliza Reid: imposter syndrome that I had of

Eliza Reid: thinking, I don't have a right to

Eliza Reid: talk about this because I'm not one

Eliza Reid: of the people with a title that I've

Eliza Reid: earned, actually helps me

Eliza Reid: to talk to other people and say,

Eliza Reid: don't wait for that

Eliza Reid: title that you've earned.

Eliza Reid: And I mean, I'll be the first one to

Eliza Reid: say, run for office and become

Eliza Reid: president, become prime minister and

Eliza Reid: do all those things, please.

Eliza Reid: But also don't wait for it.

Eliza Reid: Don't wait ro somebody else to give

Eliza Reid: you the stamp of approval of what

Eliza Reid: you can talk about or not.

Eliza Reid: We all have that need

Eliza Reid: to use our voices.

Kristina Appel: I wrote down when I, on

Kristina Appel: the on the side of page, I wrote

Kristina Appel: down "no shame, no bullshit

Kristina Appel: mentality".

Kristina Appel: Because that's sort of how I

Kristina Appel: summarized it my head.

Kristina Appel: There's like commitment to

Kristina Appel: togetherness. And maybe that's

Kristina Appel: island culture. I don't know.

Kristina Appel: Maybe that comes with...

Eliza Reid: Solidarity.

Eliza Reid: Yeah, maybe the sort of bigger

Eliza Reid: picture solidarity, I would say.

Kristina Appel: Maybe there is a commitment to

Kristina Appel: your fellow humans that's

Kristina Appel: different.

Eliza Reid: Yeah, I mean Icelandic society I

Eliza Reid: would say is very direct, is a kind

Eliza Reid: of no-bullshit society.

Eliza Reid: But I think German society is quite

Eliza Reid: direct as well, in the

Eliza Reid: limited amount that I know.

Eliza Reid: But I did make several trips

Eliza Reid: personally, I always loved

Eliza Reid: visiting Germany, a kind

Eliza Reid: of direct sort of unapologizing,

Eliza Reid: and obviously I mean, well, Germany,

Eliza Reid: I mean you have such a diverse, you

Eliza Reid: know, it's a diverse group of

Eliza Reid: cultures and histories and

Eliza Reid: backgrounds there that are kind of

Eliza Reid: merging, which, you know, brings

Eliza Reid: challenges, but also brings

Eliza Reid: opportunities, right, because you

Eliza Reid: have these different histories and

Eliza Reid: perspectives.

Eliza Reid: And one of the things that I've

Eliza Reid: often heard discussed in the

Eliza Reid: German context, when I've been

Eliza Reid: speaking, is the fact that, you know

Eliza Reid: when there was East Germany and West

Eliza Reid: Germany, then East Germany,

Eliza Reid: everybody from East Germany grew up

Eliza Reid: with mothers working outside the

Eliza Reid: home. I mean, that was just

Eliza Reid: complete norm.

Eliza Reid: So so less of a challenge there in a

Eliza Reid: sense to get over this idea of

Eliza Reid: having two parents working

Eliza Reid: full-time outside the home, whereas

Eliza Reid: other places maybe have had to

Eliza Reid: overcome more of that sort of thing.

Eliza Reid: Anyway, yeah, I feel like I get so

Eliza Reid: excited about this topic.

Eliza Reid: I start going off on all these

Eliza Reid: tangents. It's fun to talk about.

Kristina Appel: Yeah, it's cool.

Kristina Appel: It's absolutely fine.

Kristina Appel: I think you're absolutely right.

Kristina Appel: And I think it's no surprise

Kristina Appel: that Angela Merkel was born

Kristina Appel: and raised in Eastern Germany.

Kristina Appel: I think that's that's no surprise.

Kristina Appel: But yeah, let's talk you've

Kristina Appel: mentioned it earlier about

Kristina Appel: representation and role models.

Kristina Appel: And you say it in the book on

Kristina Appel: several occasions that the fact that

Kristina Appel: Iceland is so small brings you

Kristina Appel: much closer to role models from

Kristina Appel: arts and sports and

Kristina Appel: TV and media, you meet them at the

Kristina Appel: supermarket. And do you think that

Kristina Appel: if you see them in real life and

Kristina Appel: they're actually tangible girls,

Kristina Appel: women, boys even, you know, are

Kristina Appel: more inspired because

Kristina Appel: it seems more real?

Eliza Reid: I think that that small dimension,

Eliza Reid: that closeness helps, but

Eliza Reid: also just in terms of reality you

Eliza Reid: think, oh I run into that, you know,

Eliza Reid: pop star at the grocery store

Eliza Reid: or our kids are together it

Eliza Reid: makes you think, I could be a pop

Eliza Reid: star that's not something that

Eliza Reid: people in outer space or people in

Eliza Reid: this other world pursue, so

Eliza Reid: in that sense I think it's important

Eliza Reid: and I think it's a great opportunity

Eliza Reid: actually for people in all facets

Eliza Reid: of society. So not necessarily

Eliza Reid: political leaders or leaders of

Eliza Reid: companies, but people who are

Eliza Reid: well-known in whatever field to

Eliza Reid: be able to be role models and have

Eliza Reid: an influence in that sense as well,

Eliza Reid: that they can show that they're

Eliza Reid: positive. I know that my, so our

Eliza Reid: kids all played football at

Eliza Reid: different ages, and there would be

Eliza Reid: these overnight football

Eliza Reid: tournaments, and my husband would

Eliza Reid: always go with them and stay

Eliza Reid: overnight with them.

Eliza Reid: And of course, and it was like, oh,

Eliza Reid: the president's here, and he'd be

Eliza Reid: doing all these photos.

Eliza Reid: And I remember that our kids used to

Eliza Reid: love it. There was a really

Eliza Reid: well-known pop star here who had a

Eliza Reid: child the same age.

Eliza Reid: And they'd say, every time he was

Eliza Reid: there, that was great because fewer

Eliza Reid: people went to the

Eliza Reid: president and more people went to

Eliza Reid: the pop star.

Eliza Reid: But it was just kind of, yeah,

Eliza Reid: there's something kind of nice and

Eliza Reid: relatable about it then as well,

Eliza Reid: that you can connect to it.

Eliza Reid: I think that's an advantage, but,

Eliza Reid: you know, in, as you said, like in

Eliza Reid: big countries, of course, people

Eliza Reid: become nationally known, but I'm

Eliza Reid: sure there's also people who are

Eliza Reid: locally known as well.

Eliza Reid: And I think we see that with many,

Eliza Reid: you know, board stars as well, they

Eliza Reid: do their work, you know at hospitals

Eliza Reid: and they, I think many of them do a

Eliza Reid: really good job of trying to

Eliza Reid: be kind of accessible to,

Eliza Reid: to the community and taking their

Eliza Reid: roles as role-models

Eliza Reid: seriously, which is really nice to

Eliza Reid: see.

Kristina Appel: When I told people that I would be

Kristina Appel: speaking to you and talking about

Kristina Appel: what does Iceland do that

Kristina Appel: Germany doesn't do or what do they

Kristina Appel: have that we don't have,

Kristina Appel: many people said to me, yeah, you

Kristina Appel: know, it's a small country.

Kristina Appel: And they said the same thing about

Kristina Appel: New Zealand during the COVID crisis.

Kristina Appel: They did so well.

Kristina Appel: Well, it is an island and it's small

Kristina Appel: country and I don't think that's

Kristina Appel: true. I don't want to believe that

Kristina Appel: because I believe if something is

Kristina Appel: structural, it will work

Kristina Appel: no matter the size.

Kristina Appel: What's your view on that?

Eliza Reid: I hear the same thing too.

Eliza Reid: I hear you're a small country and

Eliza Reid: you're a homogeneous country.

Eliza Reid: I always push back on the

Eliza Reid: homogeneous part as well because

Eliza Reid: we're actually much more ethnically

Eliza Reid: diverse than people think that we

Eliza Reid: are. We have a lot of foreign

Eliza Reid: population.

Eliza Reid: And then when it comes to the size,

Eliza Reid: I mean sure there are advantages

Eliza Reid: of being small and in some senses

Eliza Reid: you can kind of, you can...

Eliza Reid: one of the biggest ones: You can see

Eliza Reid: the results of those changes sooner,

Eliza Reid: right? So not to the quality.

Eliza Reid: If you're company and you starting a

Eliza Reid: new product you can test it out and

Eliza Reid: see what happens.

Eliza Reid: On the other hand, bigger countries

Eliza Reid: have more money straight up.

Eliza Reid: Like they have just more

Eliza Reid: money, more tax revenue, more things

Eliza Reid: to investigate. They have more

Eliza Reid: voices, more different perspectives,

Eliza Reid: opinions, energy, you

Eliza Reid: know, they're bigger, they've got

Eliza Reid: more. So they can,

Eliza Reid: if they choose to,

Eliza Reid: can choose to be a powerhouse

Eliza Reid: in these areas.

Eliza Reid: So I think it's a little bit of an

Eliza Reid: easy answer to say,

Eliza Reid: oh, you're small and you

Eliza Reid: know you and therefore

Eliza Reid: it makes it easier.

Kristina Appel: If we were to summarize,

Kristina Appel: what are the secrets of the

Kristina Appel: sprakkar? What do you think

Kristina Appel: makes it different?

Kristina Appel: Well, I feel like I'm kind of

Kristina Appel: telling you the murderer of a murder

Kristina Appel: mystery or something, you know, like

Kristina Appel: the book's called "The Secrets of

Kristina Appel: the Sprakkar". I hope people read

Kristina Appel: the book anyway, because I hope

Kristina Appel: it's fun and inspiring.

Kristina Appel: But the secrets of sprakkar is kind

Kristina Appel: of that even though sprakkar is an

Kristina Appel: Icelandic word, it's not an Iceland

Kristina Appel: concept.

Kristina Appel: And that sprakkar and outstanding

Kristina Appel: women is not something that is

Kristina Appel: unique to our Nordic island,

Kristina Appel: but that there are outstanding

Kristina Appel: inspirational women who

Kristina Appel: are role-models everywhere.

Kristina Appel: And what we all have an obligation

Kristina Appel: to, is to elevate those

Kristina Appel: voices, to make sure that people are

Kristina Appel: using their voices and to remember

Kristina Appel: that we are all role-models.

Kristina Appel: So the point again, it's not to

Kristina Appel: celebrate the most famous women

Kristina Appel: that we all know, it's to celebrate

Kristina Appel: and remind us all that we have an

Kristina Appel: opportunity to do something here

Kristina Appel: that will kind of nudge things in

Kristina Appel: the right direction.

Kristina Appel: In a position with a big platform,

Kristina Appel: you've sort of stepped down from

Kristina Appel: this platform now, but you're still

Kristina Appel: an entrepreneur, you're a

Kristina Appel: mother, you are still a public

Kristina Appel: person.

Kristina Appel: How are you going to continue making

Kristina Appel: your mark as Eliza Reid,

Kristina Appel: not the First Lady, but...

Eliza Reid: Yeah. So I guess a

Eliza Reid: few things, you know, I'm quite well,

Eliza Reid: I do lots of different things within

Eliza Reid: Iceland here, abroad I'm continuing

Eliza Reid: writing as a personal challenge.

Eliza Reid: I wrote a fiction book, which

Eliza Reid: is a murder mystery.

Eliza Reid: So but it's kind of a feminist

Eliza Reid: murder mystery, I think I would say

Eliza Reid: it has a leading character.

Eliza Reid: It's coming out in German next year.

Eliza Reid: So I'm finishing up then the second

Eliza Reid: book in that series, I also have a

Eliza Reid: memoir coming out next year in

Eliza Reid: English, hopefully it will come out

Eliza Reid: in Germany at some point, all about

Eliza Reid: serving as First Lady of Iceland.

Eliza Reid: And the theme behind that is

Eliza Reid: to remind people.

Eliza Reid: You know, I grew up on a farm in

Eliza Reid: Canada. As I said, it's a remarkable

Eliza Reid: story, how my husband became

Eliza Reid: president, and that to remind people

Eliza Reid: to make the most of the unexpected

Eliza Reid: moments in life.

Eliza Reid: And I'm doing a lot of public

Eliza Reid: speaking. So I'm traveling a

Eliza Reid: lot to talk about storytelling for

Eliza Reid: social change, to talk about

Eliza Reid: Iceland's women, to talk about, you

Eliza Reid: know, my own story and how to make

Eliza Reid: the most of those unexpected moments

Eliza Reid: in life and kind of lean into the

Eliza Reid: uncomfortable feeling that we all

Eliza Reid: encounter sometimes.

Eliza Reid: So I have a lot of fun doing that.

Eliza Reid: I love, of course I love Iceland.

Eliza Reid: I love telling stories and talking

Eliza Reid: and so it's been really fun to

Eliza Reid: get to travel to different places

Eliza Reid: and share some of the stories with

Eliza Reid: interesting slides and that sort of

Eliza Reid: thing for people and hopefully

Eliza Reid: just give people a bit of

Eliza Reid: galvanizing inspiration to

Eliza Reid: believe that we can all make a

Eliza Reid: difference because I really believe

Eliza Reid: that.

Kristina Appel: So with good conscience,

Kristina Appel: you and I can say that you are also

Kristina Appel: a sprakki.

Eliza Reid: Oh, thank you very much.

Eliza Reid: And likewise.

Kristina Appel: Is that a title that you

Kristina Appel: would give yourself?

Eliza Reid: Someone gave me a t-shirt recently

Eliza Reid: that has "sprakki" written all over

Eliza Reid: it, you know. If I'm in a kind of

Eliza Reid: boastful mood, yeah.

Eliza Reid: I hope so.

Eliza Reid: I hope so, yeah.

Kristina Appel: Thank you for joining us.

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